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I do like the buffered bike lanes with the green markings. I hope we get more lanes similar to the green lanes on Bluebonnet or like the ones showcased in this article from bikeportland. This concept seems to provide some protection and motorist training to reduce right hooks.
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I'm curious how others feel about these cycle tracks. I'm seeing them go in at Mueller, and they concern me -- particularly those with curbs separating bikes and cars.
Seems like traffic entering the street will treat these like sidewalks and block them when pulling out. Also feels like the risk of right hooks will be much greater.
Mostly, I don't like the feeling of being trapped. What do you do when there is glass in the lane, or when you want to turn left?
Anyway, I haven't tried a cycle track yet, so these concerns may be unfounded. Just curious what others think.
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I'm curious how others feel about these cycle tracks. I'm seeing them go in at Mueller, and they concern me -- particularly those with curbs separating bikes and cars.
Seems like traffic entering the street will treat these like sidewalks and block them when pulling out. Also feels like the risk of right hooks will be much greater.
McCann-Adams presented the designs for the Mueller cycle tracks a few times at the Bicycle Advisory Council, and we sifted through them with a fine-toothed comb to make sure fears like yours were addressed. I'm assuming they also worked very closely with the COA Bicycle Program to make sure they'd be acceptable to all ages. I'm really excited to go ride on them. As for left turns, I would say if you plan to turn left somewhere that's not at an intersection, you'd join the car traffic - which in Mueller is pretty slow, right? - and make your turn. What I remember most vividly from their presentations were the box left turns at intersections (like this http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8202/8244 … c02a9.jpg). Super safe!
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My son and I both like the green lanes on Bluebonnet, in front of Zilker Elem, running down towards the top the hill on Robert E Lee. Many children are using these lanes to get back and forth from school. I think it offers less experienced cyclists or those moving a bit more slowly, increased safety, for the most part. The drivers have to get used to them as well because they have a tendency to roll through stop signs a bit on neighborhood streets, penetrating into the bike lanes. In other words, they aren't used to or prepared to have 2 way cycling going on right at the intersection/stop sign. As a cyclist, one should use extra caution and make eye contact with the drivers before blowing by in front of them, trusting them to stop behind the stop sign and edge of the bike lane. I do think the green markings and clearly marked arrows help call motorists' attention to the bike lanes. I hope that everyone gets fully used to them soon. The two closer calls I have been part of involved a very much older gentleman who just rolled through the stop without looking because he was not at all used to having 2 way bike lanes on his side of the street. I couldn't make eye contact with him and braked hard just before he rolled out into the bike lane. The other time, a lady rolled through the stop sign without even looking or thinking to check for bike traffic. She did stop, just in the middle of the bike lanes. I swerved out of the bike lanes and into car traffic lanes to get around her and to make sure that she was aware of what she did.
In other words, their are some risks to this system, most of which I think are caused by drivers' unfamiliarity w/ two way bike lanes.
Over time, I do think they will make cycling for many folks safer, as long as car drivers expect cyclists in these lanes and play by the rules.
It is also a good learning opportunity for my 3rd grader to make eye contact before hitting the intersection, every time.
Other folks have also given the new green lanes lots of positive feedback. The less experienced cyclists and kids definitely feel safer. The most experience cyclists have voiced a few concerns similar to the ones listed above. I also see very fast cyclists and road groups just taking the auto lane and staying off the cycle track.
I am very grateful for the new facilities and think that it will make a nice system in the Zilker neighborhood when everyone is fully indoctrinated.
Last edited by AusTexMurf (2013-03-05 20:58:49)
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This is my first posting here, but I have been reading the forums for a few months.
I have to say that I really hate the two-way bike lanes on Bluebonnet. I think they are really dangerous.
First of all, Bluebonnet is a low traffic, fairly slow moving (the speed limit is 30, I think, maybe 25) street. If you can not ride on that street safely without the barriers where can you ride. I would rather see those on streets where there is more traffic.
As for the dangerous part, the fact that they are two way is the problem. Drivers are not used to looking for traffic coming the wrong way. Sure drivers who live or work near there will get used to them. But not everyone driving on Bluebonnet will be a regular driver on that street (like today when all of Barton Hills and Zliker are one big parking lot for the Kite Festival). I think the really dangerous part is cars turning off of Bluebonnet onto side streets. Drivers are not trained to look behind them when turning off a street. Of course there could be a pedestrian there, but many bicyclists can move quite a bit faster than most pedestrians.
I sometimes ride up Ashby to Bluebonnet and then to Robert E. Lee. Am I supposed to cross Bluebonnet, get in the bike lane and then at Robert E. Lee cross back over to go down the hill (which has a sharrow painted on it)? or am I supposed to ride down the sidewalk (which is wide) and then cross Robert E. Lee to go to Barton Springs Road? I just ignore the bike lane and ride on the right side of the street.
Art
My son and I both like the green lanes on Bluebonnet, in front of Zilker Elem, running down towards the top the hill on Robert E Lee. Many children are using these lanes to get back and forth from school. I think it offers less experienced cyclists or those moving a bit more slowly, increased safety, for the most part. The drivers have to get used to them as well because they have a tendency to roll through stop signs a bit on neighborhood streets, penetrating into the bike lanes. In other words, they aren't used to or prepared to have 2 way cycling going on right at the intersection/stop sign. As a cyclist, one should use extra caution and make eye contact with the drivers before blowing by in front of them, trusting them to stop behind the stop sign and edge of the bike lane. I do think the green markings and clear marked arrows help call motorists' attention to the bike lanes. I hope that everyone gets fully used to them soon. The two closer calls I have been part of involved a very much older gentleman who just rolled through the stop without looking because he was not at all used to having 2 way bike lanes on his side of the street. I couldn't make eye contact with him and braked hard just before he rolled out into the bike lane. The other time, a lady rolled through the stop sign without even looking or thinking to check for bike traffic. She did stop, just in the middle of the bike lanes. I swerved out of the bike lanes and into car traffic lanes to get around her and to make sure that she was aware of what she did.
In other words, their are some risks to this system, most of which I think are caused by drivers' unfamiliarity w/ two way bike lanes.
Over time, I do think they will make cycling for many folks safer, as long as car drivers expect cyclists in these lanes and play by the rules.
It is also a good learning opportunity for my 3rd grader to make eye contact before hitting the intersection, every time.
Other folks have also given the new green lanes lots of positive feedback. The less experienced cyclists and kids definitely feel safer. The most experience cyclists have voiced a few concerns similar to the ones listed above. I also see very fast cyclists and road groups just taking the auto lane and staying off the cycle track.
I am very grateful for the new facilities and think that it will make a nice system in the Zilker neighborhood when everyone is fully indoctrinated.
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As a seasoned cyclist, I am not sure that I need the bike lanes on Bluebonnet, either. Especially headed South because you can basically pace motorist traffic for the entire route riding down hill. However, think how many people in the neighborhood use those lanes. Most of these people are not commuter cyclists and they really aren't leaving the neighborhood unless it is to go to Zilker Park. These lanes are for the neighborhood folks and for all of the children in the area that are getting around in the neighborhood, going to Zilker Elementary and Barton Hills Elementary, going to Zilker Park, baseball fields, Barton Springs, hike and bike trail, etc.
So many school age children use these lanes, particularly during morning rush hour. The drivers are getting trained by the riders using the lanes during the mornings, when extra caution due to school zones apply.
I think they are a great experiment to get less experienced cyclists and school aged kids out on their bikes. I am grateful that they put the lanes in at this location for everyone. I use them multiple times, every week. Lots of people do.
And no, personally I don't need them. They didn't put them in for me (except that I always use them when pulling my two littlest boys in the bike trailer or when accompanying my 3rd grader). I have been using this route and riding Bluebonnet for 20 years w/o incident.
My 3rd grade son loves using the lanes to get to his school. So do his classmates. We like streaming along with the other parents and school age children in the bike lanes in the morning. My son's mom even uses the new green lanes to get to Zilker elementary now and she never rode that stretch before, always drove.
Also, if you don't like the bike lanes on Bluebonnet, take the auto lane, especially when headed downhill. Lots of road cyclists do. Most of them aren't staying in the neighborhood, but are using Bluebonnet to cut through to Zilker Park and beyond.
And try the lanes, just use caution when blasting through any intersections. That is how the drivers get trained. When they are used to the lanes full of bicyclists. This is one way to establish a safe cycling culture. Provide bike facilities, make cycling safer (or perceived that way by the masses to get lots more folks on bikes). The auto drivers get trained around bikes, More drivers ride bikes occasionally, having sympathy/empathy for cyclists. Higher percentage of bike commuters vs cars. More people used to sharing the roads.
Then facilities aren't even needed as much because the bicycle culture has expanded.
That is what has happened in places like Portland, Copenhagen, Netherlands, etc......
My two cents.....
Last edited by AusTexMurf (2013-03-04 05:23:06)
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Also, I do both at the top of the hill where bluebonnet meets barton hills drive and turns into Robert E Lee. If I have my kids following me on their bikes or for less experienced cyclists, I take the extra wide sidewalk down from trailside and use that to enter the hike and bike trail system. If I am by myself or with other adults (even if I am pulling the trailer with my younger kids), I just take the lane and bomb down Robert E Lee. However, the sidewalk is actually faster if there is a lot of motorist traffic on Robert E Lee. When the cars back up, you can't bomb down anyway.
Last edited by AusTexMurf (2013-03-04 05:29:30)
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Cyclotrack/Green Lanes in front of Zilker are getting a ton of use today. It is cool to ride in the lanes at 7:30am on a nice day, streaming along with the other parents and children headed to Zilker Elementary and around the hood. Lots of use in the afternoon as well.
Also, I see quite a few runners using the safe, wide lanes, and most of the time is off peak commuting times for cyclists. They don't bother me at all because it is easy to move around them and there is actually a buffer zone in the lane so that considerate runners either hope into this zone or up on the sidewalk. Either way, I surely don't mind sharing at this point. The more people that use them the faster and better trained the motorists will be. And as a cyclist, some of the running people provide some pretty nice scenery as I pass them by. Lots.
Last edited by AusTexMurf (2013-03-05 21:02:00)
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I am a super seasoned cyclist. I really enjoy the separated lanes on Bluebonnet. It's a nice stress reliever to not have to be 100% aware of car traffic behind you. I also find that cars seem to drive very cautiously on that road now.
As for a commuter route though, it's definitely not the most efficient route north or south towards the lake. Robert E Lee is a huge hill. Much easier to take the shallow grade on Lamar to Treadwell, then weave your way south. Of course, nothing is more efficient than Lamar. But the traffic/pollution/noise is not usually worth it most of the time for me.
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To be clear, I am not against the cycle tracks per se. I believe that they would have been much more useful on a busy street, say S. Lamar. There is limited money to pay for these things (or any transportation for that matter) and I do not believe the best use of the limited money was putting them on Bluebonnet. Second the two way cycle track is dangerous (as you yourself have said). While I believe we could and should do a significant amount of education of both people driving cars and people riding bikes on how to travel safely, I do not believe adding new rules for drivers (you have to look for traffic in both directions before turning on/off Bluebonnet, when you never had to before) is a good idea. If they had cycle tracks on both sides of Bluebonnet that would have been much better for cyclists, although I think that it would have removed all the on street parking which presumably is why it was not done.
I am sure lots of people use the cycle tracks on Bluebonnet, lots of people rode on Bluebonnet before there were cycle tracks. Even if there are more people riding on Bluebonnet before (I doubt that there are any reliable numbers one way or another), it does not mean it was a good idea.
For what it is worth, I doubt many kids use the cycle tracks to get to Barton Hills elementary. Bluebonnet is (as far as I know anyway) in the Zilker attendance zone and kids going to Barton Hills would not be going through there.
Art
As a seasoned cyclist, I am not sure that I need the bike lanes on Bluebonnet, either. Especially headed South because you can basically pace motorist traffic for the entire route riding down hill. However, think how many people in the neighborhood use those lanes. Most of these people are not commuter cyclists and they really aren't leaving the neighborhood unless it is to go to Zilker Park. These lanes are for the neighborhood folks and for all of the children in the area that are getting around in the neighborhood, going to Zilker Elementary and Barton Hills Elementary, going to Zilker Park, baseball fields, Barton Springs, hike and bike trail, etc.
So many school age children use these lanes, particularly during morning rush hour. The drivers are getting trained by the riders using the lanes during the mornings, when extra caution due to school zones apply.
I think they are a great experiment to get less experienced cyclists and school aged kids out on their bikes. I am grateful that they put the lanes in at this location for everyone. I use them multiple times, every week. Lots of people do.
And no, personally I don't need them. They didn't put them in for me (except that I always use them when pulling my two littlest boys in the bike trailer or when accompanying my 3rd grader). I have been using this route and riding Bluebonnet for 20 years w/o incident.
My 3rd grade son loves using the lanes to get to his school. So do his classmates. We like streaming along with the other parents and school age children in the bike lanes in the morning. My son's mom even uses the new green lanes to get to Zilker elementary now and she never rode that stretch before, always drove.
Also, if you don't like the bike lanes on Bluebonnet, take the auto lane, especially when headed downhill. Lots of road cyclists do. Most of them aren't staying in the neighborhood, but are using Bluebonnet to cut through to Zilker Park and beyond.
And try the lanes, just use caution when blasting through any intersections. That is how the drivers get trained. When they are used to the lanes full of bicyclists. This is one way to establish a safe cycling culture. Provide bike facilities, make cycling safer (or perceived that way by the masses to get lots more folks on bikes). The auto drivers get trained around bikes, More drivers ride bikes occasionally, having sympathy/empathy for cyclists. Higher percentage of bike commuters vs cars. More people used to sharing the roads.
Then facilities aren't even needed as much because the bicycle culture has expanded.
That is what has happened in places like Portland, Copenhagen, Netherlands, etc......
My two cents.....
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"I do not believe adding new rules for drivers (you have to look for traffic in both directions before turning on/off Bluebonnet, when you never had to before) is a good idea."
I disagree. I think that drivers should have updated rules concerning sharing the roads around our elementary schools and parks with cyclists and pedestrians. Sorry.
"I am sure lots of people use the cycle tracks on Bluebonnet, lots of people rode on Bluebonnet before there were cycle tracks. Even if there are more people riding on Bluebonnet before (I doubt that there are any reliable numbers one way or another), it does not mean it was a good idea".
All subjective. Good idea, bad idea. It is an idea that seems to further safe cycling around our parks and schools. I am willing to give it a try. And I am of the opinion that there are more school age children using the new lanes to get to school than before. I just don't have a traffic counter or any statistics to back up this usage. Oh well.
"For what it is worth, I doubt many kids use the cycle tracks to get to Barton Hills elementary. Bluebonnet is (as far as I know anyway) in the Zilker attendance zone and kids going to Barton Hills would not be going through there."
Some might and some might not use the lanes to attend Barton Hills. Transfers, sibling tracking, preference for BH's Choir, or Zilker's diversity. Our oldest daughter went to Barton Hills K-5 and our oldest son attends Zilker K-3. One example.
Also, kids attending both schools in the neighborhood will probably still use Bluebonnet via Rae Dell, Arpdale, Bluebonnet, or other combos. A route to Zilker Park, Little Zilker Park, Treadwell, Garner, Lamar Square, Heather/Mary to the public library and bike route 31, etc. Not sure that I see your point here.
I still think it is a good attempt at making cycling safer and more inviting for those that live in the neighborhood. I am glad that the lanes are there, in front of the elementary school and en route to Zilker Park, bike route 31, and the city library. Also, if they had put those two way lanes on a major arterial like Lamar, the likelihood of serious accidents due to motorist unfamiliarity would be off the charts. I am not convinced that bike lanes like that belong on Lamar, unless the auto traffic congestion and density is handled first or a separate track for cyclists is created. All those rush hour motorist commuter streaming in and out of downtown, running lights, turning left and right in a hurry. Just don't think that is the right place to start with green lanes or two way cyclotracks in austin. If they are removed from auto traffic and protect against right hooks and left turns, then heck yes. I do not see room for a separate cyclotrack on Lamar, though. I would love it if one could be installed that is separate and safe from the heavy stream of motorist traffic on Lamar. I don't see how the green lanes like those on Bluebonnet would work out on the arterial. I think cyclists would get maimed.
Ride. Lots. Have fun. Be Safe.
Last edited by AusTexMurf (2013-03-05 21:11:18)
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