Drivers mores

bizikletari · 2010-08-26 10:30:25

According to OG2W the number of citations to motorists reached 675,000 for 2009 (http://oldguy2wheels.wordpress.com/2010 … citations/)

Considering that the population in the metro area is 1,705,075 (census 2008) we can estimate that one out of three of our motorists violates the law around here.

Since we know that the economic divide in Austin is high, and that many low income Austinites do not own a car plus the people who do not own a car due to age, or political decision—as in my case—we can be very sure that the percentage of drivers who violates the law might be closer to one out of two.
That is a whopping 50% of the motorists.

It is a scary world out there.

MichaelBluejay · 2010-08-26 14:17:19

we can estimate that one out of three of our motorists violates the law around here.

Actually, that means 1 out of 3 motorists gets *caught* violating the law around here. So the number of drivers actually breaking the law is a lot higher than 1 in 3.

On the other, that figure does include out-of-town drivers (though that's balanced by our drivers getting ticketed in other cities), and also some percentage of drivers gets cited more than once in a year.

Whatever the actual numbers, we do know that huge numbers of drivers break laws on a regular basis, while chastising bicyclists for doing the same. I've never been able to get around the fact that half of the serious bike-car collisions are hit-and-runs. That means that a driver, if they hit me, is equally likely to leave me for dead. Doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

john the blasphemer · 2010-08-26 15:14:05

Yeah, being left for dead is the worst part. I might, given enough time, forgive that idiot who hit me for having made a bad driving decision. But for driving off when I was lying in the street...never. Actually, to be fair, I wasn't lying down for long. I do remember running along the shoulder of Parmer Lane looking for a rock to throw.

Cars are just dangerous. They are too comfy to sit in with the a/c and music on and just tune out what's happening on the road. People in cars are almost in a different world and unable to connect fully with where they actual are. I think that makes running lights and speeding easier to do.

I hear that ...'if I have to obey the laws in my car why do all those cyclists get away with running red lights' crap all the time at work. As if I would pose a significant danger to anyone but myself if I did blow through a red light.

I would love to see a traffic violation penalty of 'you will exchange your Tahoe for a bicycle for one week' instead of a monetary fine. That would be awesome..especially if the driver then got caught blowing through a four way stop sign on his bike. I would pay to see that.

dougmc · 2010-08-26 17:53:59

bizikletari wrote:

According to OG2W the number of citations to motorists reached 675,000 for 2009 (http://oldguy2wheels.wordpress.com/2010 … citations/)
Considering that the population in the metro area is 1,705,075 (census 2008) we can estimate that one out of three of our motorists violates the law around here.

No, we can't (accurately) estimate that.

1) the oldguy2wheels blog said "over 200,000" not "675,000" ... which is it? (I don't know, I wasn't at the meeting.)
2) as Michael said, it means that these people got *caught*. The odds of getting a ticket for breaking the law once is very small.
3) getting a warning is getting caught, but it's probably not included in these statistics.
4) the tickets aren't spread around -- some people never get tickets, some people get lots. You can't just say 1 in 3 ... 1 in 6 but some people are really bad is probably closer to the truth.
5) not all citations are moving violations -- no insurance or expired inspection are pretty popular, for example. It's not clear if that's included in the 200k figure or not (APD is smart enough to exclude them if they chose too, of course.)
6) red light cameras aren't done by the police, so they probably aren't included.

Since we know that the economic divide in Austin is high, and that many low income Austinites do not own a car plus the people who do not own a car due to age, or political decision—as in my case—we can be very sure that the percentage of drivers who violates the law might be closer to one out of two. That is a whopping 50% of the motorists.

That's some pretty iffy logic there.

The percentage of drivers who violate the law is almost 100%, if not exactly 100%. It's more a matter of how and how often.

Yes, not everybody drives. But while I haven't gotten a ticket in 10 years, there's some people who get several a year. (And yet I got an actual warning a few months ago. That was a pleasant surprise -- the first time ever.) Item #4 above ...

MichaelBluejay · 2010-08-26 19:09:19

On the idea of making driving offenders swap their car for a bike for a week, I don't think we can compel people to bike, but we can certainly suspend their licenses. There was a case recently that got a lot of attention where a judge got fed up with a guy who had multiple DWI convictions, and the judge sentenced him to LIFE. Some attorney talking head said that the punishment didn't fit the crime, because alcoholism is a disease/addiction, and the guy can't stop himself from drinking. Maybe so, but is DRIVING a disease? Assuming the guy has no choice but to drink because that's completely out of his control, does he have no choice about DRIVING either? Let him drink all he wants -- just don't let him drive. Rather than trying to figure out whether a short or long prison term is best, just skip the prison term, and take his license away. Bingo, society is mostly safe. Sure, he can drive without a license, but make the penalty be life in prison for driving without a license because of DWI convictions. In that case we can really say the driver brought it on himself. Even if he couldn't stop himself from drinking, he chose to drive anyway. Clearly his fault.

The problem is that this requires judges to be creative, because suspending licenses is usually not part of the sentencing guidelines. We need to get things like "lifetime suspension of license upon 3rd DWI in 20 years" written into the code.

john the blasphemer · 2010-08-27 08:06:39

True. But if people were given a choice, that might help get a few more motorists to see what the road looks like from a cyclists perspective. If you get a speeding ticket you can pay the fine or take defensive driving (and still pay some fees anyway). What if, for certain violations, people could choose to cycle for a week? I guess it might be too hard to enforce. Probably easier to just suspend their licenses.

People always come up with ways to beat the system anyway. My son and I were driving back from New Mexico a couple of years ago. It was his turn to drive and both saw tons of cops, so we were taking it slow. At least we thought we were, until he got pulled over by the DPS. Seems we missed a speed limit sign. So, he goes to take the defensive driving course to get rid of the ticket. I warn him to be serious and take notes and to watch the whole DVD because there will be trick questions. I come back later and he's passing all the quiz questions with flying colors, but not taking any notes. Dirty rat figured out to just take screen shots of anything that looked remotely like it might be on the test.

bizikletari · 2010-08-27 15:04:20

Oh!, you are correct DougMac, I mixed my numbers up: OG2W wrote 275,000 not 675,000 and with that mistake I mostly rendered my opinion iffy. I think I'll go with your most scientifical assesment of the scofflaw drivers being 100%. Why not? Sounds about right.

It is a pretty scary world out there.

dougmc · 2010-08-28 19:41:52

bizikletari wrote:

I think I'll go with your most scientifical assesment of the scofflaw drivers being 100%. Why not? Sounds about right.

I didn't use the word scofflaw. And it's more anecdotal than scientific, but I do believe my reasoning is sound.

I'm a pretty conservative driver. I don't speed, I stop at stop signs, etc. But even so, I occasionally find myself drifting a bit over the speed limit. I'll go through a stop sign slowing down to only 1 mph rather than a complete stop, I'll let my inspection expire for a few days before I finally get it renewed sometimes, I don't *always* signal a lane change, etc.

I don't think my driving fits under any definition of the word scofflaw. And yet I probably break the law at least once every time I get in my car, and I doubt I'm unusual in that regard. Even if I try really hard to not break *any* laws -- it occasionally happens.

And to be fair, my bicycling is similar -- mostly law abiding, but there's some minor infractions made (and in general, they're often the same infractions occasionally made in a car, though exceeding the speed limit is harder to do and inspections aren't an issue.) And again, I doubt I'm unusual there.

Ultimately, the police have better things to do than ticket for every minor thing, but if you piss them off enough, they'll follow you until they catch you doing something (and it rarely takes long) and nail you for it, whatever your vehicle.

Bicycle Austin forum

#1 2010-08-26 10:30:25

Drivers mores

#2 2010-08-26 14:17:19

Re: Drivers mores

#3 2010-08-26 15:14:05

Re: Drivers mores

#4 2010-08-26 17:53:59

Re: Drivers mores

#5 2010-08-26 19:09:19

Re: Drivers mores

#6 2010-08-27 08:06:39

Re: Drivers mores

#7 2010-08-27 15:04:20

Re: Drivers mores

#8 2010-08-28 19:41:52

Re: Drivers mores

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