Bicycle Austin forum

chavela

Member

Registered: 2008-06-03

Posts: 56

Challenging mentality of "you can't blame people for making a mistake"

Starting a new thread regarding the recent crash death in Lost Creek.  Someone in a large TX municipal police force (not a cop, but handles crime records) wrote the following about whether the driver would be charged:

"Most likely he’ll receive a Failure to Yield Right of Way citation. 

Unfortunately, that’s often the only thing a driver can be charged with on many fatalities.  We’ve had at least 3 motorcycle fatalities in the past 6 months where it was just that – the car didn’t see the motorcyclist, hit and killed them and was issued a FTYROW citation.  It’s awful, but on the other hand, people make mistakes and law enforcement can’t really charge every person who made a mistake with a  crime.  On a positive note, our vehicular homicide unit has just recently been assigned a DA to help determine if there’s a way to file tougher charges in cases where it is possible.  But in general, that’s only going to be where someone did two things wrong/negligent – ran a red light and had a suspended driver’s license, for example. "

So, if they didn't MEAN to do it, there's a defense of mistake?  Is there any legal precedent where lack of intent is NOT a defense--e.g. careless use of a gun, leaving a child in a car in the summer, hitting someone on a bike...?

dougmc

Administrator

Registered: 2008-06-01

Posts: 631

Re: Challenging mentality of "you can't blame people for making a mistake"

Most laws require intent ... you must intend to break these laws, it's not something that happens on accident.  For example, murder, theft, etc.

Other laws require intent or at least reckless or negligent behavior.  For example, the careless use of a gun or leaving a child in a car.  The manslaughter laws generally fall into this category, and *could* be used in cases where somebody kills somebody in a traffic collision.

Most traffic laws don't require any of those things -- your "state of mind" doesn't matter at all, all that matters is that you did what was prohibited by the law.  So these cases are much easier to prosecute, as there's no need to show intent or negligence, for example.

In the case of a motor vehicle death, however, a jury will be made up of mostly motorists, and they'll all go "there but for the grace of God go I" and think that could be them up there on the witness stand, and so convictions for such things are rare unless things are worse than usual (DWI, drag racing, evading police, etc. -- these things make it easier for members of the jury to not see themselves in the defendant chair.)

That said, DAs in general could try a lot harder, but they only like to prosecute cases where they're guaranteed a victory and for right or wrong, in the case of a traffic fatality or injury caused by a simple moving violation -- they are not guaranteed a victory.

MichaelBluejay

Webmaster

From: Austin, TX

Registered: 2008-05-26

Posts: 1,466

Website

Re: Challenging mentality of "you can't blame people for making a mistake"

There's a solution to this that I've mentioned many times:  When someone is at-fault in causing the death of another road user, even if it's an "accident", then they lose their driver's license for life.  After all, driving is a right, not a privilege.  If you kill someone with your car, I think you should lose the right to keep driving it.

Giving someone a big fine or jail time is seen by some as punitive when the collision was accidental, and the lack of a big fine or jail time is seen by some as going to easy on the driver.  So, taking away someone's license is a good alternative, as it's not overly punitive like jail, while it ensures that there are still consequences to the driver, and those consequences are a very good fit for the problem that they're addressing:  that a licensed operator killed someone.

dougmc

Administrator

Registered: 2008-06-01

Posts: 631

Re: Challenging mentality of "you can't blame people for making a mistake"

Oh, there's plenty of possible solutions.

The problem is ... given that most people are motorists, most legislators are motorists as well, as are most of their constituents, and driving is considered to be just short of a right and so they're going to be very reluctant to pass any such laws, and in fact such a punishment would probably be considered "cruel and unusual" except in the most severe cases (multiple previous DWIs, for example.)

And even in the case of drunk drivers ... we still let them drive.  We say we'll take away their license, but they can get a provisional license almost all the time.  Even if they killed somebody.

We'll need a huge change in attitudes before we take away people's licenses for any length of time, even when they kill somebody.

MichaelBluejay

Webmaster

From: Austin, TX

Registered: 2008-05-26

Posts: 1,466

Website

Re: Challenging mentality of "you can't blame people for making a mistake"

Agreed on all counts.  My point was that license revocation could potentially satisfy both sides (those who want meaningful consequences, and those who think fine/jail time is too harsh), not that it would be easy to make that a reality.  The ultimate problem is people's attitudes...with this, and just about every other issue.

RedFalcon

Member

Registered: 2013-10-10

Posts: 233

Re: Challenging mentality of "you can't blame people for making a mistake"

License revocation would have another benefit.  It would force offenders to become pedestrians, public transportation users, or maybe even transportation cyclists.  Offenders might then get a taste of what it is like to be treated as a second class citizen in this crappy town.  Who knows, some of them might even learn something from it.

I would say that license revocation would be a great natural consequence for driving misbehaviour.

Last edited by RedFalcon (2015-04-21 19:36:35)

rich00

Member

Registered: 2010-01-18

Posts: 166

Re: Challenging mentality of "you can't blame people for making a mistake"

Piloting such a deadly machine is seen not as what it is. It is seen as just driving. Since it is so embedded and common everywhere, it becomes the natural way.

So, make a mistake and "whoops, sorry!" Your dead.

Society doesn't want to acknowledge what it really is - an action that has very deadly consequences, which just so happens to provide them transportation.

Would people walk around with loaded guns mounted facing each other (which would fire upon bumping into someone else) if it provided a better transportation experience? That's pretty much what driving a 3000lb vehicle is. Most people don't want to accept that truth, they rather live in denial and blame the victim (cyclist, motorcyclist, other person in smaller car they killed) and chalk it up to a mistake. Whoops.

Last edited by rich00 (2015-04-24 13:56:43)

MichaelBluejay

Webmaster

From: Austin, TX

Registered: 2008-05-26

Posts: 1,466

Website

Re: Challenging mentality of "you can't blame people for making a mistake"

Bingo!

I've always wanted to write a short story where someone from the present time travels to the future, where their method of transportation is beaming from place to place (like Star Trek), and the traveler is shocked to learn that there's a very small (X%) chance of accidentally getting vaporized instead of arriving at your destination, and can't believe that people willingly use the transporters when they could just die randomly, since I think most readers would have the same incredulity as the traveler.  Then the footnote to the story would be that the risk depicted in the story is half the actual risk of dying on your way to work by driving.