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The bike box treatment underway at Speedway/38th is making me nervous – the first steps appear to have been to extend the bike lanes on the "downstream" side of 38th all the way back to the intersection. This seems dumb to me; intuitively one of the primary benefits of the bike box was going to be to allow cyclists to proceed through the intersection first, ahead of the motorists/buses, to the point where the bike lane picked back up (past the left turn lane, i.e.).
Now, there's kind of no point – barring right-turning vehicles who don't behave, there's no real reason for the bike box at all – the bike lane doesn't even have the gap.
('downstream' is the side heading away from the intersection, i.e. the side across 38th from the bike box).
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I'll have to check this out....but if anyone is out and can snap a photo, that would be good for everyone to look at.
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I took some photos about an hour ago. They can be found on my Flickr account:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomwald/se … 566362029/
To be clear, there are no bike boxes painted yet. The bike lanes on Speedway leading toward and away from 38th St. are relatively new (last couple of months).
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Your flickr page is private. And the bike lanes were restriped within the last week or two. (I live right around the corner from there). It strains credibility to imply that said restriping wasn't part of the bike box project.
Last edited by m1ek (2009-10-30 06:51:42)
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Thanks for letting me know the photos were still set to private. An e-mail to me will do next time.
I took the photos yesterday, as stated in my post.
I am trying to understand whose credibility is being strained. I did not imply that the new bike lanes are not part of the bike box project. However, they are clearly not bike boxes, but are bike lanes. I suggested that they are likely part of the bike box project by pointing out that the extensions of the bike lanes are relatively new.
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Since I'm doing this from the web forum, and there isn't an obvious link, I posted instead of emailing you privately or spending more work time trying to locate your email address. Apologies for that. Only now do I see I could have clicked on your name and sent email from the profile.
I had already said they were painted in the last week or two; you then expanded it to "last couple of months". In case you didn't realize it, I live right around the corner from this intersection and drive through it multiple times a day.
The tone of your reply seemed to imply that you were doubting that the bike lane repainting was in preparation for the bike box work. I'd put it at 99% certainty that this restriping (including narrowing the other lanes at the intersection approach) was done for the bike box project.
Last edited by m1ek (2009-11-02 07:53:28)
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All I know is this isn't a bike box right now. I have the list of where everything goes...but it's on my computer and I be on the road! Someone should just email Annick and find out.
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The issue is that the treatment of the new bike lanes makes the bike box redundant. The whole point is to give cyclists a line-up space to get ahead of traffic and then move over into the bike lane, right? If the bike lane now continues through the intersection (doesn't stop and then start up after the left-turn cut-out ends), it's kind of a waste and not a valid test of the concept - because the new bike lane stripes that are there now would also allow cyclists to proceed without interference from motorist traffic.
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I definitely see your point, Mike.
My behavior at Speedway & 38th until a couple of weeks ago was to ride the middle of the lane approaching and leaving the intersection. Most motorists (say about 3/4ths) would get very irritated and harass me with me staying in the middle of the lane until the bike lane began. They would tailgate or pass too closely or drive toward oncoming traffic. Others waited at a reasonable distance or passed at a safe distance when no other traffic was oncoming, though passing me meant crossing the double-yellow line and often passing while in the intersection. (Shuttle bus drivers did not harass me.) Now I generally use the bike lane on both sides of the intersection.
I, or someone else, will look into what the intention of the new striping is at this intersection.
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I saw the bike box installed today and snapped a photo, available at http://www.flickr.com/photos/23044147@N03/?saved=1
Last edited by timdiller (2009-11-08 17:51:44)
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This morning, cars lined up to go straight through on Speedway in both directions were lined up well into the 'bike box' (which is shorter than I imagined it would be, and not colored at all). If this is going to be any kind of worthwhile test, the following items are needed at a minimum:
1. Colored paint for the bike box.
2. "Stop HERE on Red" signs pointing to the big thick line.
The bike boxes appear to me to be insufficiently long - but I was driving, and there were no cyclists lined up to tell for sure this morning.
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All,
We encourage you to continue to comment on this forum. However, it would be more helpful if you would send your comments and observations to: [ City's Bicycle Program website ]. This will allow us to send them directly on to the Center of Transportation Research for their consideration and review during the analysis of the design.
Thanks,
nb
Edit: Email addresses not allowed as per forum rules, because spambots pick them up. Replaced email addresses with City's Bicycle Program website, which has a contact form (in a non-spammable format).
Last edited by MichaelBluejay (2009-11-09 19:15:01)
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I feel pretty certain that most motorists don't know what to do with the bike box. The signage doesn't make it clear.
In my personal experience, most motorists are content to wait behind a cyclist who is preventing them from turning right on red. I usually try to be sensitive to this and stay to left so that they can get by if needed, but sometimes they'll honk at me to get me to move over, and I find that really irritating. There are places where I want a car waiting with me to trigger the light signal. Guadalupe northbound at Koenig is a good example of a sensor that won't change the light for a solo bike, so I usually block the lane so that a car will wait with me and trigger the sensor.
What would be a good way to label the box to let motorists know that a bike is legit at the front of a stoplight line? "Bikes wait here" inside the box? "Wait here on red" on a sign pointing to the line?
BTW, I'm cross posting to the city's feedback site.
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It makes turning left easier!
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I'm a little surprised that right turns on red are allowed at all at bike boxes. As Allan said,
"One scenario where this could cause issues: Say a car gets to an intersection and is going to turn right, but forgets (or chooses not) to use their signal (which happens A LOT, I think we can all agree on that). They turn their head to the left to watch traffic. While their head is to the left, a bike comes up to the right of the car and plans on going straight through the intersection. There is no opening for the car to turn right when the light is red, and then the light turns green, and the car tries to turn while the cyclist goes straight. Collision. This is just one scenario, there are plenty others."
Well, what's to stop that car from looking to the left for a gap and then making that right turn on red? What are the chances they looked back to their right mirror/window for a bike approaching the bike box on their right?
I see the need for the "STOP HERE ON RED" sign but it doesn't seem to me that it does any good without a "NO TURN ON RED" as well? It's kinda like that new pedestrian signal at the Triangle. Are people supposed to stop and then proceed or wait for the signal to revert back to flashing yellow? I'm a traffic engineer and even I can't figure it out! It is a scary place to cross and I see these bike boxes setting themselves up for the same dangerous unpredictability.
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Has anyone written to the CoA as suggested by Nadia?
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I just did - thanks for the prompting.
My problems with the bike boxes echo what I have seen here - too short and too ambigous for motorists. My other problem is that the real issue with this intersection is that the road condition is horrid. As long as that is true, cyclists will go every which way. If only the city would repave Speedway from 38th to 45th. Considering the number of cyclists that ride on Speedway everyday, that would be high on the list of cyclist friendly things the city could do.
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I will do so now, but reluctantly; it's better if this kind of discussion be in public so it's clear to the public whether anything actually happens or the input is just ignored.
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I'm a little surprised that right turns on red are allowed at all at bike boxes. As Allan said,
"One scenario where this could cause issues: Say a car gets to an intersection and is going to turn right, but forgets (or chooses not) to use their signal (which happens A LOT, I think we can all agree on that). They turn their head to the left to watch traffic. While their head is to the left, a bike comes up to the right of the car and plans on going straight through the intersection. There is no opening for the car to turn right when the light is red, and then the light turns green, and the car tries to turn while the cyclist goes straight. Collision. This is just one scenario, there are plenty others."Well, what's to stop that car from looking to the left for a gap and then making that right turn on red? What are the chances they looked back to their right mirror/window for a bike approaching the bike box on their right?
I see the need for the "STOP HERE ON RED" sign but it doesn't seem to me that it does any good without a "NO TURN ON RED" as well? It's kinda like that new pedestrian signal at the Triangle. Are people supposed to stop and then proceed or wait for the signal to revert back to flashing yellow? I'm a traffic engineer and even I can't figure it out! It is a scary place to cross and I see these bike boxes setting themselves up for the same dangerous unpredictability.
I am not sure exactly when it happened, but there are now "no turn on red" signs on both northbound and southbound speedway. They have been there for at least a few weeks. Of course, some drivers ignore them, but overall compliance with the no turn on red signs and the wait here markers seems reasonably decent to me.
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I ride through this intersection twice a day, and have been doing so since well before the bike boxes where created. Now that they have been there for a while, this is what I have noticed.
1) Most of motor vehicles respect the "wait here" line on the road. Note that I said most, not all.
2) Most of the motor vehicles respect the "no right turn on red" sign.
3) Most cyclist stay on the right (ie, in the bike lane), but pull up ahead of the cars.
4) Very few cyclist actually pull into the bike box - ie, pull up ahead of the cars, and over the to left so as to be directly in front of the cars.
5) If there is no car at the light, I pull up in the center of the bike box. If there is a car at the light, I rarely pull up into the bike box - I just pull up to the head of the bike lane. The bike box is too short to pull over the the left and ahead of the cars without some awkwardness. Before the change, I always merged into traffic as the bike lane ended, putting me where the bike box is if I got to the light before any cars, and interspered with cars otherwise. I was in the minority of cyclists that did this.
Overall I have mixed feelings about the change. I like having the bike lane go all the way up instead of ending short of the intersection and the banning of turning right on red. I don't find the bike box itself very useful due to its short length. I don't think very many cyclist realize that they are supposed to pull up directly in front of motor vehicles waiting at the light. I hope the city didn't spend very much money on this project.
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A change in the speedway bike boxes: they have been painted green. The change happened on Thursday. They certainly are visible now, and it is painfully obvious that they are too short.
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