[BIKE: Relevant to recent discussions]

[Bob Farr]

While I'll accept that reasonable people can disagree, I won't concede that the
traffic control device scofflaws here are being reasonable.

I think the proponents of disregarding signals and stops are advocating nothing
less than anarchy on the road. And while this anarchy may be quite satisfying
for --  those who deal it out -- it will ultimately turn out very badly.

What goes around, comes around.
--
Robert Farr
Austin, TX
bobfarr
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Bluejay" <bikes>
To: "Jeff Thorne" <jeffrey.thorne>
Cc: <forum>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [BIKE: Relevant to recent discussions]


> Yes, this is what it comes down to:  Patrick and I maintain that it's
> not dangerous to do something that's not dangerous (e.g., run a traffic
> control signal after verifying that there's no possible way to get
> hit).  The opposition states one of two things:
>
> (1) Running traffic control signals is a dangerous way is unsafe (which
> is not a true counter, because neither Patrick nor I nor anybody else
> on the planet has ever said that it's a good idea to run traffic
> control signals without verifying that it's safe to do so, duh). OR
>
> (2) It's impossible to determine whether it's safe to run a traffic
> control signal because there could be vehicles that you can't see.
>
> The latter idea is particularly preposterous.  Again, if this were
> truly the case, one would that after I've exhibited this "dangerous"
> behavior every day for twenty years that I would have had close calls
> or even suffered injury, but neither is the case.  (I suppose the
> naysayers will say that I somehow didn't see or hear all those
> invisible vehicles that had to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting
> me.)
>
> There's another reason why the counter-argument is fallacious:  The
> principle of a Stop sign is that the operator is able to stop, check
> traffic, and proceed when they see that it's safe to do so.  No one
> disputes this.  But suddenly, if the intersection has a red light
> instead of a stop sign, then MAGICALLY we somehow lose our ability to
> stop and check to see whether it's safe to proceed.  All of a sudden
> there are cross-traffic vehicles that "we can't see" somehow.  Amazing.
>
> Please, come up with something better than (1) or (2) above.  Those
> were old five years ago.  If you want to insist that cyclists should
> follow the law because following the law makes one pure or something,
> fine.  But you're never going to convince me that safe behavior is
> unsafe.  That's just ridiculous.
>
> -MBJ-
>
> On Apr 29, 2004, at 10:41 AM, Jeff Thorne wrote:
>
> > Let me second that emotion and add an observation of my own:
> >
> > While this 'debate' (to abuse a term) was going on, I, while cycling
> > through a
> > green light at nearly 25 mph, nearly t-boned another cyclist who was
> > running
> > the red to turn left across my path.
> >
> > To me, this illustrated two points about predictability while riding
> > through
> > 'controlled stops,' those being:
> >
> > 1) cyclists are not as noticeable in an intersection as your common
> > Corvair,
> > Corvette, or F-250; he must not have seen me and I nearly didn't see
> > him, so
> > keep in mind that the car (or cyclist) that will hit you is likely the
> > one not
> > looking for you to be in the intersection to begin with; and
> >
> > B) it's the vehicle you don't see coming that you should be worried
> > about when
> > you think it's safe to roll on out--can the vehicle you didn't see
> > notice you
> > and stop in time?  Would giving yourself more time to look for that
> > stealthy
> > grey Acura make it safer to proceed?  If that unnoticed driver sees
> > you at the
> > intersection, is she more likely to think you will be stopping or that
> > you
> > will roll on through as if she wasn't there?
> >
> > The phrase "Rushing Roulette" came to mind just now, not that I'd get
> > on
> > anybody's back about how one uses one's own sound judgment at a stop
> > sign.
> >
> > --"Stops Mostly" Thorne
> >
> > Fred Meredith <bikin-fred> wrote:
> >
> > The following text was part of a post on another listserv a national
> > cycling advocacy list. I thought the author was very much on target
> > and the topic very relevant to last weeks discussion on traffic
> > lights/stop signs and whether cyclists needed to obey the law.
> >
> >>
> >> My personal problems with the behaviors enumerated previously, and
> >> responded to by Stanley below, are as follows:
> >>
> >> Weaving/swerving - I have been crashed into by cyclists who are
> >> unpredictable.  I *thought* I could predict the next graceful curve
> >> enough
> >> to get by, but I was mistaken.
> >>
> >> Unpredictable rideouts - Folks leaving driveways or side streets
> >> without
> >> looking, slowing, or being otherwise predictable are a noticeable
> >> problem.
> >>
> >> Light/sign running - I have had very near misses, while driving and
> >> cycling, with cyclists who ignored traffic signals/controls while
> >> traveling
> >> at approx. 10-15MPH.
> >>
> >> Wrong way riding - I often have unpredictable encounters, and have
> >> had a
> >> couple crashes, with cyclists riding facing traffic.  I have also
> >> ended up
> >> with a cyclist running into the right  front corner of my car as I
> >> prepared
> >> for a right turn out of a side street.
> >>
> >> Unlit at night - I have had MANY close calls with unlit riders, who
> >> have
> >> often been exhibiting other unpredictable behaviors at the same time.
> >>
> >> I ride in the metro Fort Lauderdale area, night and day, rain and
> >> shine,
> >> and by far my worst set of problems comes from fellow cyclists who
> >> treat
> >> traffic rules "situationally".  If you're looking for a justification
> >> for
> >> following traffic rules, think of the obligation one has to society
> >> to not
> >> endanger others or to not, by endangering oneself, become a burden on
> >> society in general.
> >>
> >> Please don't try to defend behavior that is dangerous.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Whitney
> >>
> >>
> >> At 03:23 AM 4/29/04 -0700, Stanley wrote:
> >>> SB:
> >>> The answer is that they aren't as concerned as you are
> >>> with demonstrating approved cycling positioning,
> >>> posture, or technique. Other cyclists may not be as
> >>> concerned as you in being in the "correct" gear, or as
> >>> concerned with taking the most efficient line through
> >>> a curve or from point A to point B, or complying with
> >>> the letter of unenforced traffic regulations (that
> >>> often are situationally irrelevant). In some cases
> >>> they may not regard safety in as high as regard as
> >>> you; some people do not make avoidance of every risk,
> >>> no matter what the significance, their paramount goal
> >>> in life. They may not define "not look where they are
> >>> going" the same way you do.
> >>>
> >>> The "answer" for adults and probably most older
> >>> children's "problem" is that they may not have a
> >>> problem.
> >>>
> >>> Your problem is failure to recognize that cyclists may
> >>> know the "correct" techniques, but choose not to use
> >>> them for reasons that don't jibe with your own cycling
> >>> values.
> >>>
> >>> Stanley
> >
> >
> > Last names and email addresses removed since I did not ask their
> > permission to reprint some of their words.
> >
> > Fred (a believer in predictability, especially when I am the most
> > vulnerable participant) Meredith
> > -- 
> > When in doubt ... ride your bike (or at least write about it).
> >
> > Fred Meredith
> > P.O. Box 100 (12702 Lowden Ln for UPS/FedEx)
> > Manchaca, TX 78652
> > 512/282-1987 (office/home)
> > 512/282-7413 (fax)
> > 512/636-7480 (wireless)
> > More than you want to know at: http://2merediths.com
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
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