[Re: [BIKE: Relevant to recent discussions]]

[Jeff Thorne]

Geez.  Let me amend:  "not that I'd get on anybody's [including MBJ's] back
about how one uses one's own sound judgment at a stop [light or stop] sign."

Michael Bluejay <bikes> wrote:

Yes, this is what it comes down to:  Patrick and I maintain that it's 
not dangerous to do something that's not dangerous (e.g., run a traffic 
control signal after verifying that there's no possible way to get 
hit).  The opposition states one of two things:

(1) Running traffic control signals is a dangerous way is unsafe (which 
is not a true counter, because neither Patrick nor I nor anybody else 
on the planet has ever said that it's a good idea to run traffic 
control signals without verifying that it's safe to do so, duh). OR

(2) It's impossible to determine whether it's safe to run a traffic 
control signal because there could be vehicles that you can't see.

The latter idea is particularly preposterous.  Again, if this were 
truly the case, one would that after I've exhibited this "dangerous" 
behavior every day for twenty years that I would have had close calls 
or even suffered injury, but neither is the case.  (I suppose the 
naysayers will say that I somehow didn't see or hear all those 
invisible vehicles that had to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting 
me.)

There's another reason why the counter-argument is fallacious:  The 
principle of a Stop sign is that the operator is able to stop, check 
traffic, and proceed when they see that it's safe to do so.  No one 
disputes this.  But suddenly, if the intersection has a red light 
instead of a stop sign, then MAGICALLY we somehow lose our ability to 
stop and check to see whether it's safe to proceed.  All of a sudden 
there are cross-traffic vehicles that "we can't see" somehow.  Amazing.

Please, come up with something better than (1) or (2) above.  Those 
were old five years ago.  If you want to insist that cyclists should 
follow the law because following the law makes one pure or something, 
fine.  But you're never going to convince me that safe behavior is 
unsafe.  That's just ridiculous.

-MBJ-

On Apr 29, 2004, at 10:41 AM, Jeff Thorne wrote:

> Let me second that emotion and add an observation of my own:
>
> While this 'debate' (to abuse a term) was going on, I, while cycling 
> through a
> green light at nearly 25 mph, nearly t-boned another cyclist who was 
> running
> the red to turn left across my path.
>
> To me, this illustrated two points about predictability while riding 
> through
> 'controlled stops,' those being:
>
> 1) cyclists are not as noticeable in an intersection as your common 
> Corvair,
> Corvette, or F-250; he must not have seen me and I nearly didn't see 
> him, so
> keep in mind that the car (or cyclist) that will hit you is likely the 
> one not
> looking for you to be in the intersection to begin with; and
>
> B) it's the vehicle you don't see coming that you should be worried 
> about when
> you think it's safe to roll on out--can the vehicle you didn't see 
> notice you
> and stop in time?  Would giving yourself more time to look for that 
> stealthy
> grey Acura make it safer to proceed?  If that unnoticed driver sees 
> you at the
> intersection, is she more likely to think you will be stopping or that 
> you
> will roll on through as if she wasn't there?
>
> The phrase "Rushing Roulette" came to mind just now, not that I'd get 
> on
> anybody's back about how one uses one's own sound judgment at a stop 
> sign.
>
> --"Stops Mostly" Thorne
>
> Fred Meredith <bikin-fred> wrote:
>
> The following text was part of a post on another listserv a national
> cycling advocacy list. I thought the author was very much on target
> and the topic very relevant to last weeks discussion on traffic
> lights/stop signs and whether cyclists needed to obey the law.
>
>>
>> My personal problems with the behaviors enumerated previously, and
>> responded to by Stanley below, are as follows:
>>
>> Weaving/swerving - I have been crashed into by cyclists who are
>> unpredictable.  I *thought* I could predict the next graceful curve 
>> enough
>> to get by, but I was mistaken.
>>
>> Unpredictable rideouts - Folks leaving driveways or side streets 
>> without
>> looking, slowing, or being otherwise predictable are a noticeable 
>> problem.
>>
>> Light/sign running - I have had very near misses, while driving and
>> cycling, with cyclists who ignored traffic signals/controls while 
>> traveling
>> at approx. 10-15MPH.
>>
>> Wrong way riding - I often have unpredictable encounters, and have 
>> had a
>> couple crashes, with cyclists riding facing traffic.  I have also 
>> ended up
>> with a cyclist running into the right  front corner of my car as I 
>> prepared
>> for a right turn out of a side street.
>>
>> Unlit at night - I have had MANY close calls with unlit riders, who 
>> have
>> often been exhibiting other unpredictable behaviors at the same time.
>>
>> I ride in the metro Fort Lauderdale area, night and day, rain and 
>> shine,
>> and by far my worst set of problems comes from fellow cyclists who 
>> treat
>> traffic rules "situationally".  If you're looking for a justification 
>> for
>> following traffic rules, think of the obligation one has to society 
>> to not
>> endanger others or to not, by endangering oneself, become a burden on
>> society in general.
>>
>> Please don't try to defend behavior that is dangerous.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Whitney
>>
>>
>> At 03:23 AM 4/29/04 -0700, Stanley wrote:
>>> SB:
>>> The answer is that they aren't as concerned as you are
>>> with demonstrating approved cycling positioning,
>>> posture, or technique. Other cyclists may not be as
>>> concerned as you in being in the "correct" gear, or as
>>> concerned with taking the most efficient line through
>>> a curve or from point A to point B, or complying with
>>> the letter of unenforced traffic regulations (that
>>> often are situationally irrelevant). In some cases
>>> they may not regard safety in as high as regard as
>>> you; some people do not make avoidance of every risk,
>>> no matter what the significance, their paramount goal
>>> in life. They may not define "not look where they are
>>> going" the same way you do.
>>>
>>> The "answer" for adults and probably most older
>>> children's "problem" is that they may not have a
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Your problem is failure to recognize that cyclists may
>>> know the "correct" techniques, but choose not to use
>>> them for reasons that don't jibe with your own cycling
>>> values.
>>>
>>> Stanley
>
>
> Last names and email addresses removed since I did not ask their
> permission to reprint some of their words.
>
> Fred (a believer in predictability, especially when I am the most
> vulnerable participant) Meredith
> -- 
> When in doubt ... ride your bike (or at least write about it).
>
> Fred Meredith
> P.O. Box 100 (12702 Lowden Ln for UPS/FedEx)
> Manchaca, TX 78652
> 512/282-1987 (office/home)
> 512/282-7413 (fax)
> 512/636-7480 (wireless)
> More than you want to know at: http://2merediths.com
> _______________________________________________
> Get on or off this list here:
> http://lists.bicycleaustin.info/listinfo.cgi/forum-bicycleaustin.info
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Get on or off this list here:  
> http://lists.bicycleaustin.info/listinfo.cgi/forum-bicycleaustin.info
>