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		<title><![CDATA[Bicycle Austin forum / Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
		<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?id=798</link>
		<description><![CDATA[The most recent posts in Go car-free and save $1.5 million.]]></description>
		<lastBuildDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2023 06:54:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=7830#p7830</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>The financial case for going car-free has gotten even stronger.&#160; <a href="https://newsroom.aaa.com/2023/08/annual-new-car-ownership-costs-boil-over-12k/" rel="ugc">AAA reports</a> that the cost of car ownership went up a whopping 14% from 2022 to 2023, now $12,182 on average, or more than $1000 a month.</p><p>BTW, I know the calculator no longer works.&#160; I sold the Bicycle Universe site a few years ago (to buy a Pac-Man machine).&#160; The calculator worked at first after migrating to the new owner&#039;s host but now it&#039;s not for some reason.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (MichaelBluejay)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2023 06:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=7830#p7830</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=7569#p7569</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Nice to know that I beat Salon to the punch by over a decade.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (MichaelBluejay)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=7569#p7569</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=7568#p7568</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p><a href="https://www.salon.com/2022/02/18/the-actual-cost-of-a-car-can-be-as-high-as-1-million-and-society-pays-for-much-of-that/" rel="ugc">https://www.salon.com/2022/02/18/the-ac … h-of-that/</a><br />(depending on the car, of course)&#160; Lifetime Cost of Owning a Car (study&#160; <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800921003943?via%3Dihub" rel="ugc">https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … via%3Dihub</a> ):&#160; $1mm</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (Jack)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Fri, 18 Feb 2022 22:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=7568#p7568</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2609#p2609</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Okay, thanks everyone for the feedback, most especially dougmc!&#160; I made tons of changes to the calculator as a result.</p><p>I increased the per-trip costs for taxi and carshare, and decreased the frequency for both.&#160; I also doubled the figure for bike maintenance.&#160; I know these new figures still don&#039;t work for everyone, but *no* numbers will work for *everyone*.&#160; Everyone&#039;s situation is different, and that&#039;s why the calculator lets the user enter their own numbers. :)</p><p>The insurance/license/registration defaults are from AAA&#039;s study of average vehicle costs in the U.S., as noted under the calculator.&#160; Again, it&#039;s not the same for everyone, and everyone can enter their own figures.</p><p>If you want to account for replacing your bike every X years, just add that amount to the Annual Bike Maintenance field.&#160; (e.g., $400 every 10 years is +$40 into bike maintenance).&#160; This is nearly a negligible effect on the bottom line, though.</p><p>You&#039;re right, I assumed that the car is replaced as soon as it&#039;s paid off.&#160; I&#039;m going to keep it that way for simplicity because the calculator is already big (and complicated) enough, but I went ahead and added a note about this to both the pop-up help and the notes under the calculator, noting that if someone doesn&#039;t replace their car right away they can account for that by entering a lower figure for their yearly interest+depreciation.</p><p>On the gas cost, I think most people have a better idea of how much they spend a week on gas than the number of miles they drive in a year and the actual (real-world) mpg of their car.&#160; It&#039;s certainly easier to have one field instead of three.&#160; This is another area where I&#039;m gonna take a shortcut to try to avoid making the calculator unwieldy.</p><p>The results are absolutely inflation-adjusted!&#160; Or rather, they don&#039;t need adjustment by default, because I assume we spend the same amount every year, without increasing it for inflation.&#160; I went ahead and noted that the calculator does give inflation-adjusted results.</p><p>I changed the default interest rate to 6.72%, which is the annualized long-term return of the U.S. stock market, adjusted for inflation.</p><p>And yes, I made a huge error in the interest calculations.&#160; What was I smoking?&#160; I fixed that.</p><p>Finally, let me share a reply that someone accidentally sent to the list rather than here:</p><div class="quotebox"><cite>Michael Cosper wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><p>One of the biggest reasons I was able to retire early was that I did not drive a car to work for almost all of my career. I had a good solid pension plan of course but not spending money on a car gave me a lot of leeway financially. It did anger me that I could get to work on freeze days and a lot of car drivers couldn&#039;t.</p></div></blockquote></div><p>Thanks again for all the constructive help!</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (MichaelBluejay)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2609#p2609</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2582#p2582</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>FYI I did the math on more realistic numbers for my situation, and it looks like I would save about $100/mo if I ditched the car entirely.&#160; However I must qualify that I work from home, and do not drive very often.&#160; If I chose to finance a car every time my last one was paid for, it would be more like $400/mo in savings.</p><p>-- edit, I assumed I would car share or take a taxi or rent a car.&#160; If I went ENTIRELY bicycle, and never used a car under any circumstances I would obviously save more.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (Adriel)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2582#p2582</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2580#p2580</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>The calculator is pretty neat and clever, though some of your initial figures seem off, at least for me and my compact car.</p><p>The &quot;car cost&quot;/year is pretty close, assuming I keep my car for seven years.&#160; (I hope to keep it longer, but we&#039;ll see.)</p><p>As a 40+ year old married man who hasn&#039;t made a claim in years, I pay $31/month for full insurance coverage on my fairly new compact car -- pretty far from $79/year.</p><p>Your registration/taxes is *way* high for Texas.&#160; I pay about $70/year for registration and $30/year for inspection.&#160; No taxes (other than sales tax on new car, but that&#039;s covered in it&#039;s price.)&#160; Other states tax cars more thoroughly, but not here.&#160; (I imagine you just used the AAA figures, so that makes sense.)</p><p>I spend next to nothing on parking, but that&#039;s just me ...</p><p>On the bicycle side ...</p><p>You assume that the $400 bicycle will last 35 years and that the commuter will only have one and it will never be stolen.&#160; That seems overly optimistic :) <br />(Yes, some people have had bicycles last 35 years of daily use -- but some people have cars that have as well, and that&#039;s certainly not taken into account on the left side.&#160; And it shouldn&#039;t be -- it&#039;s the exception rather than the rule.)</p><p>$50/year will barely cover a professional tune-up, let alone new tires and such. </p><p>And you&#039;ve made a huge mistake on the interest calculation.&#160; Using all your default values, a car will cost $275,065 over 35 years, and a bike $74,985, and it says &quot;Total saved over 35 years if invested @&#160; 6% interest: $1,540,741&quot;.</p><p>However, this calculation seems to be based on compound interest on an initial investment of $200,080 over 35 years, when in fact this $200k will be building up over time.&#160; &#160;i.e. your calculation seems to be based on somebody giving you $200k on day one, and you put that in your 6% savings account and wait 35 years, when the reality is that you&#039;ll get an average of $5742 (less the first year because you bought a bike) to put into that account each year, so the amount gained from interest will be roughly half of what you said.</p><p>The interest calculation also seems to think that the bike is purchased at the end of the 35 years rather than the beginning?&#160; (If you change the figure from $400 to $0, that means you saved $400 more the first year, but you don&#039;t seem to get compound interest on that $400.)</p><p>And of course, the value of this $1.5 million (or $0.85 million once the interest is done properly?&#160; I haven&#039;t pulled out a calculator) 35 years from now will be a lot less in 2011 dollars.&#160; Really, throwing compound interest and large periods of time into this calculation simply muddies the waters, as many of these figures will be changing massively over time -- I doubt gas is still $4/gallon 35 years from now, for example.&#160; And 35 years ago, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qB0lb401ZU" rel="ugc">small cars didn&#039;t cost $20,000</a> either.</p><p>Hell, I think 35 years from now most cars won&#039;t use fossil fuels at all (electric seems likely), and private cars might just be a luxury item for the very wealthy.&#160; And insurance will be next to nothing as most motor vehicles will be computer controlled and almost never crash :)&#160; (at least that&#039;s my take on it, we&#039;ll see how accurate it is.&#160; 35 years is a long time.)</p><p>The calculator would be more &quot;honest&quot; if you did away with the interest calculation entirely.&#160; But if you leave it, mention it as &quot;money for retirement&quot;.&#160; (And you&#039;d only pay taxes on the interest part, not the money saved.)</p><p>I&#039;d suggest a few changes to the defaults --</p><p>--- rather than ask for a dollars spent on gasoline/week, you should ask for miles driven per year, car mileage and price of gas per gallon and calculate from that.<br />-- a new bicycle every four years (the car figures seem to be a new one every 8 years or so?)<br />-- $100/year bicycle maintenance (remember, this bike is going to get a lot of use)<br />-- fewer taxi rides, but they cost more</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (dougmc)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jun 2011 05:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2580#p2580</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2575#p2575</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>I owned a 94 Saturn wagon which I purchased new and drove until the engine blew up last year.&#160; I was always very diligent about maintenance and made repairs as soon as possible after noticing a problem.&#160; &#160;The car ran pretty well and never had any major issues.</p><p>I had saved every receipt for every single repair, oil change, tune up, and tire change.&#160; &#160;I totaled these and added in what I had payed for insurance.&#160; I had to make an estimate on the gas, so I went with a fairly conservative number.</p><p>In the 16 years I owned that car it cost me at the very least $175,000.&#160; I think the number may actually be closer to $200,000 because I was so conservative on the fuel estimate. I just wanted a low total estimate.</p><p>I sure wish I had invested that money instead.&#160; Most of that time I was married and we had another car anyway.</p><p>Actually, I feel a bit sick to my stomach at the moment.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (john the blasphemer)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2011 16:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2575#p2575</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2573#p2573</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>Adriel wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><p>I do not think you can get a cab for $6 from anywhere to anywhere, it is usually $20-50</p></div></blockquote></div><p>I agree, but I also think the default numbers in terms of how _often_ you have to use a cab are pretty pessimistic.</p><p>The only times we&#039;ve had to use a cab are things like...</p><p>- doctor&#039;s appointment for a medical problem that prevents cycling [back/knee issues are no fun]</p><p>- backup ride home after mechanical failure [outside car2go range, or account not working and Austin office closed]</p><p>- going on vacation, missed bus to airport.</p><p>...these are all pretty rare events. If my wife had a foldable/packable bike like I do (and a trailer for carrying a suitcase... that packs into the suitcase with the bike!), we could have just biked to the airport and avoided the 3rd one altogether. So -- price-per-trip is far too low, but number-of-trips is far too high. (A similar thing is true on the carshare charges -- I spend closer to $15/trip on car2go, but that&#039;s something I do less than once a month).</p><p>One big thing the default values missed for me was mass-transit charges -- I take the train to (within a few miles of) work every day, and the everything-included CapMetro month pass adds up over time -- and the bike-maintenance costs were lowballed compared to what I see in practice -- but the numbers still came to about $1.2M savings.</p><p>The much bigger thing it missed, though, is the cost of the new bike habit -- the car numbers assume a new vehicle every time the lease or loan runs out, after all. Factoring *that* in makes my hankering for a shiny new custom-frame internally-geared folder (but belt-drive this time!), or one of Elliot&#039;s custom stokemonkey-assist Xtracycles, or [...list goes on...] look downright fiscally irresponsible.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (CharlesDuffy)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2011 16:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2573#p2573</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2571#p2571</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>I do not think you can get a cab for $6 from anywhere to anywhere, it is usually $20-50</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (Adriel)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2011 15:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2571#p2571</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Go car-free and save $1.5 million]]></title>
			<link>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2569#p2569</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>I finally got around to something I&#039;ve been meaning to do for over a decade -- create a calculator to figure how much you could save by ditching your car.&#160; The results were pretty astonishing:&#160; One could save over $1.5 million over 35 years if they invest their savings at 6%, even if they take plenty of taxi, bus, and car-share trips.</p><p>Here you go:&#160; <a href="https://bicycleuniverse.com/car-free-millionaire/" rel="ugc">Biking vs. Driving Calculator</a></p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[dummy@example.com (MichaelBluejay)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2011 13:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://bicycleaustin.info/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2569#p2569</guid>
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